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[LIVE BLOG] Zondo Inquiry: Gordhan says his daughter has no business with the state

Pravin Gordhan is expected to conclude his testimony at the commission today after which former Treasury Director-General Lungisa Fuzile will take the stand.

There you go then...

Gordhan ends with the famous: "There was no one left to speak for me” poem.
Applause from public gallery as he ends.

She does not have any shares in Canada. My daughter has not done any business with the state.

"She did not own any shares directly. She did not benefit." Gordhan says. 

He says "My daughter is not involved in any malfeasance. She joined Investec in 2007. Investec invested in the shares, not my daughter. It's the bank that owns them."

Gordhan says there was wrong information about his daughter.

Gordhan says witnesses are willing to be attacked and corrected but it would be nice if our critics would come under oath and present themselves.

Gordhan says the pools of money lie in procurement... 

Gordhan says 

Gordhan takes a swipe at the EFF and BLF saying they are distracting the commission...

State capture must be fought and ended. There must be consequences for people on the ground, Gordhan says.

Gordhan puts forward his closing remarks

Zondo says the department of Public Enterprises may have a lot of information on what is happening and what happened. He has called for churches and other organisations to come forward.  

Gordhan says President Ramaphosa is trying to steer the moral compass in the right direction..

Gordhan says what the world and SA are going through is a raging populism that manipulates public opinion, puts out fake news that promotes them into kingmakers.

He continues to say that every political party in seeking citizens to vote for it, should think about the people and not serving yourself. 

Gordhan says politics of patronage and governance go together. Says well informed plays part and that is not done in this country. 

"Is there anything you've looked at and thought the governing party should have done A,B and C?" Zondo asks

Zondo says he needs to ask when did the ANC realise there was state capture and what did they do about it...

Gordhan says Zuma lied.

He refers to the pieces of the puzzle again...

Gordhan says Zuma lied to the executive. He pushed the nuclear deal. Putting in place certain ministers...

Zondo asks Gordhan who lied to the executive.

Zondo has final questions for Gordhan

Gordhan says he doesn't want to name anyone in terms of who was in office when what happened.

Pretorius says Malusi Gigaba might come to the commission to give evidence. 

"Do you have any recollection of talking to Malusi Gigaba back then?" Pretorius asks Gordhan. Gordhan says no.

Gordhan says he has a better grasp of what has been going on in relation to state capture.

Pretorius now asks Gordhan about his interview with CNN on Zuma...

Gordhan says everyone in Cabinet is in the process of re-capturing the SOEs back.

Gordhan now talks about his current role...

Gordhan remained an MP after his sacking and says it's because his family and him needed to decide on the next step.

He talks about economic and fiscal consequences... 

Gordhan now talks about reaction from ratings agencies on the Cabinet reshuffle... 

Zondo asks Gordhan if relationship broke down because he stood in Zuma's way, Gordhan says yes.

Zondo asks Gordhan to detail if there is anything that could have led to a breakdown of relationship with Zuma.

Gordhan now details a history of his relationship with Zuma...

Zondo asks if Zuma had raised anything about breakdown of relationship, Gordhan says no.

"It was just past midnight that many of us had been dismissed. Various replacements were made by the former president." Gordhan says.

Gordhan says the next day was the funeral of the late Ahmed Kathrada. On Thursday the SACP issued a statement that Zuma was to fire Gordhan and they condemned that.

Gordhan: We refused to resign and we were ready to be fired. 

"Did you consider resigning in the interest of the country?" Adv Pretorius asks Gordhan

"Mr Mantashe had said Zuma prefers if I resign rather than fire me," Gordhan says.

Gordhan says he believes Zuma had suggested Brian Molefe as finance minister but that was rejected. 

Gordhan says Gwede Mantashe told him that Zuma said their relationship had irretrievably broken down.

Advocate Pretorius asks Gordian to deal with his landing at OR Airport after being told to come back home...

We are back...

Break until 11:30

Gordhan says the intention was clear... 

Gordhan now talks about his return to SA...

Zondo asks Gordhan if he knows for sure if the report is authentic. Gordhan says SACP would be able to answer that...

Remember that massive Cabinet reshuffle in March 2017? See below: 

Gordhan says the intelligence report has ludicrous claims... 

The minister says Zuma informed the SACP that he was conspiring with foreign forces against him but Gordhan says he never saw the report.

He says they then rescheduled a for a flight for later that evening...

He was in London for an investor roadshow along with DG Lungile Fuzile and Mcebisi Jonas was to join Fuzile in New York later.

Gordhan says when he arrived at Heathrow Airport there was a message to say return immediately... 

Gordhan now deals with his removal as Finance Minister in March 2017... 

Zondo says he wonders whether the lack of response by ANC members to come forward - could it be a reflection that its own members did not have confidence that the ANC could handle the matter. 

Gordhan says people did not come forward because there was a climate of fear "Fear for your life, fear for your career..."

Pretourius asks Gordhan about the ANC's process to investigate state capture. Gordhan says only Maseko made a written submission. 

Pretorius now moves to the memo from former DGS:

Gordhan says this happened during heightened concern about what was happening in the state. Themba Maseko referred to it.
Gordhan says the memo had been delivered to him, was an important part of civil society activism.

Gordhan says Molefe has skills he learnt from Treasury, this is in regard to how Molefe defended nuclear deal...

Pretorius now touches on the issue of Brian Molefe former Eskom CEO...

Gordhan says Eskom was also captured and he will come back to that.

Gordhan is now asked about Eskom and it’s relation to the Nuclear deal. He tackles that...

Gordhan is again asked to answer questions in relation to the nuclear deal and he says some issues are classified and would rather not overstep and answer such questions. He says Energy Department must be asked.

Gordhan now moves on to talk about the nuclear deal during his second stint as minister, where it was approved, but not the funding model. 

Gordhan calls for the state to freeze assets of those found to be corrupt.

He says his "follow the money" phrase is for the commission to see where stolen money during state capture was shifted to and to also allow the government to be able to recoup that money in future. 

Gordhan asks the commission to follow the money

"This was the first public acknowledgement of suspicions regarding the business affairs of the Gupta entities since the Public Protector’s State of Capture report was only released to the public on 2 November 2016," Gordhan says.

Gordhan says the FIC as part of application certified that it had received 72 suspicious transaction reports from the various banks relating to suspicious account activity and transactions conducted using the bank accounts that had been closed.

On October 14 2016,  Gordhan launched a court application to seek declaratory relief regarding the limitations of his powers to intervene in various decisions taken by several commercial banks to close the accounts held by Gupta-linked companies.

Gordhan highlights a statement from Zwane which was repudiated by former president Jacob Zuma as not being the view of the Presidency regarding the Gupta-linked bank accounts.

Mosebenzi Zwane. In case you've forgotten what he looks like.

Gordhan: Mr Zwane reprimanding banks and accusing them of trying to tell government how to function was not a true reflection of the views of Parliament or even the IMC.

Advocate Pretorius asks Gordhan about Zwane's statement rebuking the banks on how to run the country.

Gordhan says: "The banks themselves can also inform the Commission about the nature of the interaction [with the committee]." 

Chair Zondo asks if a committee was established to deal with closure of Gupta banks. Gordhan replies 'yes'.

Zondo returns to Gordhan's distinction between the ad-hoc committee he described and an inter-ministerial committee, or IMC. He asks Gordhan to explain the distinction.

The minster says he was at the IMF meeting in Washington when members of the IMC met - Mosebenzi Zwane and Mildred Oliphant were on the IMC. Faith Muthambi was later added. Zwane declared himself the chair.

Gordhan says former Mineral Resources Minister Mosebenzi Zwane seemed to chair the meetings. Gordhan says he refused to be part of that process.

He says the task team was an ad-hoc structure to deal with intervention. 
Zondo asks Gordhan if Gordhan was clear in his mind that intervening was the request. "In other words, there can be no doubt, that was the request," says Zondo. Gordhan agrees.

Gordhan says the Oakbay associates admitted that they had little prospects of success if they approached the courts over the closure their bank accounts. 

Gordhan says there was similar pressure coming from within their own ranks at government, neither he or Treasury officials would meet the banks or intervene.

Gordhan tells the commission that he met with representatives of Oakbay telling them they can't intervene saying they should go to court.

The minister refers to paragraphs in his written statement on engagements with Oakbay's Nazeem Howa and Gordhan's insistence the Finance Minister cannot and will not intervene.

Gordhan has taken the stand no

“We’ve now taken a decision to fight Pravin and therefore, you must know Pravin is going to fight badly, he’s going to fight dirty. There will be casualties, there can even be a loss of life. If you’re not ready for that, stand aside.”
Malema said. 

Yesterday, EFF leader Julius Malema said the party will testify at the commission when they are ready.

So the EFF and BLF have been protesting outside the venue in Parktown, calling for Gordhan to step down.

Let's go back to some of those explosive quotes he gave us: 

He insists he had no relationship with the Guptas and is prepared to challenge anyone who says otherwise.

Gordhan has called on his critics to testify at the Zondo commission, saying he's ready for the challenge.

Let's recap...

Good morning and welcome to EWN's live blog about state capture. Public Enterprises Minister Pravin Gordhan continues to give testimony at the inquiry. 

We will now adjourn today. Gordhan will carry on tomorrow.

Abrahams later withdrew the charges a few days before the court appearance.

Gordhan deals with Shaun Abrahams announcing on TV  that charges had been laid against him over the Ivan Pillay matter. He says this was very unusual.

Gordhan says Gupta media, commentators including Mzwanele Manyi launched attacks against the proposed amendments. The amendment was eventually passed.

Gordhan says there was resistance within in and outside government to amend FICA regulations to tighten them.

Gordhan says Treasury doesn't work outside government orbit.

It was said that Treasury was opposed to radical economic transformation. Gordhan says most of that rhetoric was drivel.

There was a lot of contention between Treasury and Minister Dlamini over CPS and Sassa.

He says there are gaps in the social security system, which includes unemployment.

Gordhan says SA has one of the world's most developed social grant programmes.

When a solution to the issue was almost found, it was turned down, Gordhan says. He says they were right to raise their concerns. 

Gordhan now asked about a letter from Bathabile Dlamini to Zuma on Cash Paymaster Systems. It was said at the time that Treasury was an obstruction to the process betwen CPS and Sassa. Treasury wanted to find a cheaper option.

Zuma's lawyer apparently attempted to mediate the difficulties between Gordhan and Moyane.

Gordhan says Moyane a number of changes at Sars without telling him, as he should have.

Gordhan says once in ameeting with Moyane, Moyane was rude to him.

Gordhan now moves on to his relationship with Tom Moyane. He says a Sars Commissioner is accountable to the finance minister.

Gordhan says they didn't want to make it easy for "them". As he speaks, you can hear EFF protesters singing outside.

Gordhan says he and Treasury decided to resist the smear campaign

"Fake news undermines democracy and can influence citizens to do the wrong things," he says.

Gordhan says he watched  BBC programme yesterday which exposed how campaigns such as Bell Pottinger's are run using digital platforms.

Gordhan says Bell Pottinger has an interesting notorious history.

Gordhan speaks about the white monopoly capital Bell Pottinger campaign.

There were attempts to push him to resigns. He says Bell Pottinger was central to this campaign.

Gordhan says he was persistently harassed in 2016.

Zondo asks if he was part of the China or India state visit. Gordhan says he wasn;t part of them.

Pretorius goes back to the events of 2016.

Gordhan says he has difficulty telling the Gupta bros apart. He says he calls them the 3 Musketeers.

Zondo says those who contest Gordhan's evidence can come forward. Gordhan says he isn't sure if they are hearing that voice.

Gordhan says he would not have lied to Parliament about meeting the Guptas.

He says he threw the wedding invitation away.

"At no stage would I have entertained a meeting directly with the Guptas... I ahve never been to Saxonwold... nor, by the way, did I look for the 'shebeen'. I have never been to the wedding."

"There was no such relationship... I want to make it absolutely clear that whatever the interactions might have been, there was no so-called meeting... We happened to be together in the same place at the same moment. I am quite emphatic about the point that I am not for sale.. There were repeated efforts to try to meet me... all of which I or the office [Treasury] turned down."

Gordhan addresses if he ever met the Guptas.

Pretorius asks Gordhan about his interactions with the Guptas.

Advocate Pretorius now goes into Jonas and Mentor's evidence. He says the veracity of allegations made must be examined.

In early 2016, Jonas was concerned and wanted to know what would be the right time would be to speak up. This was before the budget speech and Gordhan says they didn't want to disrupt it. It was decided that Jonas would keep quiet until the budget period passed.

Gordhan talks about Jonas approaching him after the Guptas tried to bribe him. He says Jonas was very upset, distraught and wanted to resign. This was to prepare someone to take Nene's place. To find a "compliant" individual. R600mil looks big, but when you have billions at stake... He was told that the Guptas wanted access to R800 billion from the state."

He says TNA breakfasts became popular platform for ministers to interact with the public.

Gordhan says Treasury said they don't want anything to do with the breakfast and that they didn't want anything to do with the Gutptas.

Gordhan says The New Age (i.e the Guptas) and the SABC had an arrangement that they would do the post-SONA and post-Budget Speech breakfast briefings. One SOE would sponsor. New Age would get free advertising.

Advocate Pretorius asks Gordhan about the cancelling of The New Age Biz Breakfast's cancellation.

Gordhan says all the processes to be followed when appointing advisers could not have happened within the time that can Rooyen was appointed and brought them to the Saxonwold meeting.

Zondo asks if Gordhan knows whether van Rooyen's advisers were formally appointed for the positions.

Gordhan continues on his testimony regarding Des van Rooyne. There was a e meeting where Van Rooyen where he brought his advisors Ian Whitley and Mohamed Bobat, who enquired on who was dealing with the SAA matter.

And we're back from lunch. EFF leader Julius Malema will address members picketing outside at 4pm. Gordhan says former Treasury DG Lungisa Fuzile will testify tomorrow.

Lunch adjournment. The commission will resume at 2pm.

Gordhan says having answered the 27 questions asked by the Hawks there were disturbing rumors in the media of his imminent arrest. He says there were concerns both at a personal level and institutional level.

Advocate Pretorius asks Gordhan about the charges against him from Moyane. 

Zondo asks if Gordhan expected his cabinet colleague to brief him if Ntlemeza was to serve him with the questions as a courtesy.
Gordhan says that is a colleague-ial courtesy if there is a will to do so.

Gordhan says "... This was not a gentle inquiry." Gordhan also tells chair that he has videos of the press conference about 27 questions.

Chair Zondo asks Gordhan: "Why would Mr Mahlobo have been there?"

Pretorius asks if there couldn't be an argument that this was a legitimate investigation. 
Gordhan says you have to look at the context to establish whether there is a bona fide investigation. Why all this intrigue, delivering envelop, leaking questions.

Gordhan says leak of the 27 questions showed there was an agenda.

"A day after the budget, the question were leaked to the media; meaning that there is an agenda. Who were the forces that were behind that?" Gordhan asks.

Gordhan says it was a political problem which could lead to serious disorientation. He describes the process on the morning of the Budget with the media lock up. 

Gordhan says he was requested to attend a meeting with Mantashe, Duarte and Mkhize. He interrupted preparations for the Budget and flew from CT to JHB to meet them. 

uBaba and Pravin.

Gordhan met with Zuma. He objected strongly against the charges laid against him. Zuma said he said he’d discuss the matter with Nkosinathi Nhleko, then police minister. After that, he didn’t receive any answers from Zuma. 

Gordhan says when he showed Zuma the 27 questions for him, the former president just flipped through them and said nothing.

The minister says Zuma was unhappy with him but could not fire him again, and then he instead allowed him to be harassed and intimidated in order to force him to resign.

Gordhan says ANC comrades urged him not to resign after he was intimidated. 

Gordhan says a different formula had to be found to intimidate, harass and literally chase him out of office. 

He says he was forced to resign. 

"Some very hard lessons were learnt from the turmoil caused by the firing of Mr Nene," Gordhan states. 

He says the week before budget speech, an envelope from the Hawks was delivered to him. There were 27 questions and charges against him.

Gordhan: What Mr Ntlemeza did at the Hawks, and as I highlighted that was a pattern, was to remove the good people at the top and replace them.

Gordhan  suggests that capture of Hawks was central to state capture. 

Pretorius asks Gordhan to detail his statement of the capture of the Hawks.

Gordhan talks about a meeting with Berning Ntlemeza. He says Ntlemeza urgently wanted to see him but he was busy with finalising the budget speech

He continues to say that there is a stigma associated with funding from the IMF, especially harsh conditions imposed. 

Gordhan: countries in debt either go to the IMF or the Chinese. IMF frowned on because of harsh conditions imposed. 

Gordhan: I was approached by SA business leaders on how to avoid a credit rating downgrade. This resulted in an urgent meeting convened with business leaders from WEF. This was early 2016.

Gordhan now talks about his relationship with investors. He was part of a delegation to the annual World Economic Forum in Davos in February 2016. Here he was approached by SA business leaders.


Gordhan talks about meetings like Davos where different governments meet to discuss trade and investment. 

The Treasury was the key institutions of sate capture, Gordhan says.

Gordhan says it took a formidable amount of time to get to a point where they had an agreed on a list of board members for SAA. Treasury was not worried about politics of the issue.

On the appointment of the SAA board Zondo asks Gordhan if Zuma's involvement of SOE boards was normal. Gordhan says "not in the form that this particular board demonstrates."

Pretorius asks Gordhan about his relationship with investors... but Chair Zondo interjects... 

Pretorius refers to a cabinet memo that has been declassified about the appointment of board members to SAA. 

Advocate Pretorius sums up what was dealt with.

Chair Zondo addresses the noise outside by the EFF saying they will do something to make sure everyone can hear proceedings.

We are back!

Picture: Abigail Javier/EWN.

Picture: Abigail Javier/EWN

While they are on a tea break, the EFF is not standing down... Is that the army? Upon further inspection, it seems it's just the EFF's people/fighters, not sure what to call them.

Tea break now. The commission will return at 11:30. 

The minister says despite concerns, Treasury gave SAA the opportunity to make representations on the Airbus deal. He does not remember who gave the presentation because he was on semi-leave.

Gordhan is painting a grim picture of SAA. 

Gordhan says the proposed pre delivery agreements of $40 million would have triggered debt defaults. Would have had severe consequences for SAA and the country as a whole. SAA didn’t have the money.

Gordhan says then SAA chairperson Dudu Myeni wanted to amend this agreement, so that SAA could buy the jets and then have a sale and lease back with local businesses.

Gordhan speaks on leasing of aircrafts. He says it may sound easy in the first stage, but aircrafts also need to be refreshed in the meantime, so when they are returned, they are done so in the condition which it was found in.

Gordhan says final allocations to departments were only concluded in January the next year.

Nene being told that he would get BRICS was a lie, Gordhan said.

Gordhan is now describing the debt issue facing the country in 2015 and the need for it to taper off before reaching 60% of GDP.

As Gordhan's testimony continues, there is noise; singing and chanting outside. 

Gordhan says when Zuma fired Nene and said he had a job at BRICS, he lied. "There was no such job."

Gordhan is now  laying out what he planned to do as he started his second stint as finance minister. 

Gordhan now goes back to the conversation he had with Zuma. He says he told him that there were certain matters at the time that concerned him which includes SAA, nuclear procurement deal and Tom Moyane's role as Sars commissioner. 

Gordhan and clapbacks! Shooo! He says "Those who are making allegations outside of this forum should make them under oath and subject themselves to cross examination..." 

"I don't make deals for jobs, I don't need to." Gordhan tells the commission.

Chesa minister!

"Zuma told me during that meeting that he was happy with Des Van Rooyan, that he was qualified..." Grodhan says.

Gordhan says on Sunday the 13th he got an invitation to attend meeting with Zuma:

Gordhan says in the late afternoon of 13 Dec, he received a message requesting his attendance at a meeting with former president Zuma to be held at Mahlamba Ndlopfu later that evening. He was told to "please don't refuse."

Gordhan says the concerns expressed by citizens after Nene was fired over that weekend was justified.

"For the average South Africa, the damage was to their savings."

Gordhan estimates that damage of the events of 9 December 2015 are at around R500 billion - market value of 17 biggest JSE entities fell by R290 billion while SA bonds dropped 12% of capital value (R216 billion). 

Back inside the venue, Gordhan says after Nene was removed, people's investments and pension funds' value dropped. 

The ANC's Jackson Mthembu is on the streets fetching the EFF and BLF. 

Though it's a partly cloudy day outside, you might see red. It's the EFF. They are back! Hashtag protest, hashtag EFF Wants Gordhan to step down...

Gordhan says 

Chair Raymond Zondo asks Gordhan "To what extent were they [government] influenced by any contact by investors and other stakeholders?" 

"Once markets closed for the weekend, there were ongoing fears that the situation would worsen when they re-opened on Monday, 14 December 2015," Gordhan said.

Gordhan says the removal of Nene caused financial turmoil and a sharp depreciation of the rand.

Gordhan now details Nhlanhla Nene's axing and how the markets reacted.

He now asks Gordhan to explain his recollection of the 9th of December  201 events...

Advocate Pretorius now starts with a summary of yesterday's testimony...

Here we go...

Day two of Pravin Gordhan testimony commencing shortly...

Pravin Gordhan hits back at Shivambu
According to a 'Business Day' report, Gordhan called on the EFF's Flyod Shivambu to tell South Africans who finances his and the EFF leaders’ lifestyles.

Today the minister is expected to shed more light on the workings of the state capture machinery...

The ANC's head of the presidency Zizi Kodwa described the EFF's criticism of Gordhan as the politics of distraction.
"...champions of anti-corruption of yesterday are now defenders of corruption today." Kodwa said.

Yesterday, both the EFF and BLF protested outside the commission in Parktown against Gordhan. The EFF is accusing Gordhan of lying under oath about meeting with the Guptas and are calling for his removal.

“I wanted to impress upon the former president that that undertaking, the nuclear procurement, required careful consideration of its costs, choice of supplier and due process.” The minister said.

The minister said he advised Zuma that nuclear procurement would be a complex issue.

Gordhan advised the commission to look at the damage state capture has caused to individuals.
“People were left jobless, their reputation was tarnished.” He said.

He said state capture significantly damaged the country with honest public servants being marginalised, reputations being tarnished and jobs being lost.

He says when former President Jacob Zuma asked him to return to the Finance Ministry, he was reluctant.

The Public Enterprises Minister told the commission he was reappointed to the Finance Ministry in 2016 because of the turmoil caused by Nhlanhla Nene’s axing.

Alright let's recap some major things Gordhan detailed yesterday. 

Good morning and welcome back to EWN's live blog on Minister of Public Enterprises Pravin Gordhan's testimony at the Zondo Commission of Inquiry into state capture. 

It is now 4pm. We adjourn and continue tomorrow.

Denel is required to comply with law before establishing a company.

"One must ask the question; why the urgency?" Gordhan says. "Who benefits by rushing it through."

Gordhan indicates that he was being rushed with regards to the Denel deal. This was very close to the Christmas period when offices were about to close.

The Gupta-linked company was registered in Hong Kong. 

Attacks were made on Treasury and Gordhan by the chair of the Denel board regarding the lawfulness of the Asia deal.

After Nene's removal, a new Denel board was appointed.

Gordhan says two days before Nhlanhla Nene was removed as finance minister, no formal PFMA application was submitted seeking his approval for the establishment of Denel Asia, which is required by law. This means Nene did not approve it. After Nene was removed, new minister Des van Rooyen the PFMA application was submitted to him to approve.

Gordhan speak about the behaviour of the then Denel chair which suggests that there was a collabo with the Gupta-linked company.

Gordhan says the Denel had been "captured" as revealed in Gupta leaks. He compliments to the work done by amaBhungane and Scorpio. He explains why he says the board was captured.

Gordhan is now speaking about a joint venture between arms company Denel and a Gupta-linked Indian company to start a company in India.

Eventually, a due diligence exercise was not performed.

Gordhan says there was resisting to due diligence being done in the nuclear deal.

The Petro SA deal did not succeed.

Gordhan says a fiscal liability committee was set up to review deals and its impact on the fiscus.

Zuma later called Gordhan to follow up on the Petro SA deal. 

The idea was that Angola's petrol company would partner with Petro SA and provide some of the money. But due diligence had to be done.

There were discussion between Petro SA and Engen to buy some of their petrol stations. The asking price went from R17bil to R18bil. But it was revealed this was not the actual price.

Gordhan now speaks on the Petro SA acquisition.

Gordhan still on the need for a proper evaluation of the costs. He speaks of the exchange rate changing affecting the calculations.

Minister of Economic Development Ebrahim Patel has reportedly walked in to the room

Gordhan now deals with how Treasury responded to Energy's proposal. Treasury objected to the crafting of the draft agreement and the financing studies that energy had done.

Officials in Treasury raised concerns with the draft agreement with Russia. Gordhan says signing an MOU with Russia didn't equate a firm agreement.

The Department of Energy approached Treasury on the matter of a tax incentive, which is what Russia required, Gordhan says.

At the end of discussing the procurement process, it was decided that Treasury would deal with it.

Gordhan says he told Zuma he would run a procurement project for the nuclear deal, which was so big, to ensure that it was properly done. He told Zuma it would be appropriate to follow legal process to avoid scandals like the Arms Deal. The deal's costs, supplier etc had to be carefully considered, Gordhan says.

Gordhan now asked about the involvement of the Russians in the nuclear deal. 

The nuclear build project became very central. If not managed in a responsible way, our social, housing programmes etc would have been negatively affected. SA would not be able to manage its fiscus.

Gordhan now talks of the nuclear deal. He says the country could not afford it all as R1 trillion was requried and the country was already in a lot of debt.

Gordhan says him commenting was a way to help Zuma in the decision-amking.

Gordhan says Zuma tried to insert himself in the Sars commissioner appointment. He says there was hesitation to allow the due process to conitnue.

Gordhan says everyone testifying is supplying pieces of evidence and it is up to the commission to connect them.

Gordhan says Ramaphosa introduced a new level of transparency when General Khehla Sitole was appointed as police commissioner. Something that didn't exist before.

Gordhan was accused of interfering in the appointment process when he commented on who appoints who.

DCJ Zondo asks if Moyane was among the 120 who applied for the Sars commissioner post. He asks for clarity on this.

Prior to 2002, ministers appointed DGs. Gordhan says this had its issued. This was changed, allowing the president to appoint, This to had it's own issues. But DGs are still accountabke to the minister.

The Sars commissioner post was advertised publicly before the 2014 elections. 120 people applied for the post. 

Tom Moyane was only appointed when Nhlanhla Nene was minister, not under Gordhan.

In 2002, an amendment was made to allow the president to appoint a Sars commissioner. Before that it was the finance minister's job.

Oupa Magashule was appointed acting-Sars commissioner after Gordhan became finance minister the first time around.

Gordhan says if government maintains a relationship of trust with the public, taxpayers will pay taxes. We now move on to his time as Sars commissioners shortly after the 2008 recession.

The finance ministry's job was assure the public that their money was used to their benefit.

Gordhan continues to explain the role of the Finance Minister.

We are back from lunch.

The commission now takes a lunch break. Will be back at 2

Gordhan says laptops were another example. SETA laptops cost R20K, while retailing at R5K.

Zondo says he struggles to understand practice in government where things are purchased at inflated prices. He says it seems to be quite common. 

Gordhan says a lot government entities buy goods at inflated prices. He says the question is who benefits?

The minister says long-term borrowing is a complex function, and this is largely foreign investors and local investors who buy the bonds of government.

Gordhan says most of SA's money comes from Europe, specifically London.

Gordhan says there are a lot of people who need to pay back the money.

Gordhan: State capture and the manner in which it undermined state institutions meant there was no protection of the fiscal sovereignty. It impacted severely on the economic growth of the country.

On fiscal sovereignty, Gordhan says the threat of destroying or undermining key institutions is its impact on economic growth and revenue collection.

"SA can proudly say that most of its expenditure comes from revenue collection, therefore SA is different from many developing country and that's why the IMF can't come here and tell the country on how to spend its money." Pravin Gordhan says.

Gordhan speaks about Treasury. He reads an abstract that speaks on the roles and responsibilities of the minister of finance.

Gordhan asks to reads the roles of responsibilities of minister of finance and Treasury. 

Pretorius now looks at National Treasury, he asks Gordhan to explain what he knows about the role of Treasury and minister of finance... 

Gordhan refers to another report from the South African Council of Churches. He reads a segment into the record on "a chaotic design" and "inappropriate control of State resources" controlled by a power elite centred around the president.

Gordhan says the elites would be ministers, while brokers are those who facilitate the trade of resources. Dealers will show us how money was laundered and who was responsible for hiding financial transactions. 

Gordhan says he will look at how much was stolen, who stole it, how it will be tracked down and how it be taken back.

In his statement, Gordhan draws on the report 'Betrayal of the Promise' of 2017 specifically in terms of the different people in state capture.

The minister says after 2016 municipal elections, there are interesting examples of deployment. "The first line is Cabinet. The second would be in various institutions." 

Pretorius asks Gordhan about government deployment...

Gordhan: "Those attacking us have something to hide, something to protect, something to distract the public with." Could he be referring the EFF and BLF? 

"The work of the public protector must be applauded as it brings us to where we are today." Gordhan states.

Analysis nyana: 

We are getting reports that the EFF group protesting outside the venue is growing. The party and it's supporters are calling for the minister to step down. 

Gordhan: "I am not claiming that I have full knowledge of everything to do with state capture, hopefully the commission will be able to put the pieces of the puzzle together." 

Pretorius now continues to go through the minister's evidence, heads to paragraph 14.

Gordhan speaks of the fight back. He says there is the phenomenon of the fight back and those who have engaged in state capture are now participating in distraction. He mentions Bell Pottinger and fake news.

"It would be wrong to suggest that the ANC means everybody," Gordhan states.

Zondo says he can't recall the ruling party taking disciplinary action against its members without waging for law enforcement. Gordhan says he's not representing the ANC. He says when ANC comes they may clarify that matter.

We are back...

EFF members protest outside the state capture inquiry as Pravin Gordhan testifies.
Credit: @Abigail Javier/EWN.

Let's get some analysis from the streets while we wait for the commission to come back:

Taking a short break and the commission will return at 11:35.

[FULL REPORT] Former Sars Commissioner Tom Moyane and former NPA head Shaun Abrahams have told the state capture commission of inquiry they intend to apply to cross-examine Pravin Gordhan.

#StateCaptureInquiry: Moyane, Abrahams to apply to cross-examine Gordhan

Public Enterprises Minister Pravin Gordhan is taking the stand at the state capture inquiry on Monday.

Gordhan says corruption is an "ever present threat. It is a cancer".

"Smallanyana Skeletons" are coming out...

"Why is that there is no big figure that finds themselves in orange uniform yet?" Gordhan asks

Zondo is asking Pravin Gordhan about the paragraph that says the current leadership structures seems helpless to arrest corrupt and factional tendencies. He wants to know if means the leadership of Jacob Zuma...

Zondo now wants to ask questions based on the resolution... 

Gordhan is now reading a resolution from the ANC's Nasrec conference in December last year on corruption...

The ANC is in danger of losing credibility, Gordhan says. 

Gordhan says the structure and limitations of someone in the middle of state capture must be taken into consideration.

Gordhan says he has raised the issue of corruption many times

The consequences of state capture include job losses, marginalised competent public servants with incompetent people. Reputations were tarnished. Pulling no punches here!

Gordhan now reads his opening statement. He says state capture unleashed the worst of human instincts.

Gordhan says he remained an MP and talks about his return to government after the election of Cyril Ramaphosa as president.

Gordhan says he wasn't informed that he's fired as finance minister. He adds he found out via the news on TV.

Getting old is real, Gordhan says.

The minister now gives the commission his history into politics...

"The job of the minister of finance requires many meetings both international and local... We are getting on with age, one must confess that." Gordhan says about not remembering some meetings.

Gordhan's testimony has been highly anticipated: 

Who was responsible for leaking Pravin's statement? Chair Zondo says the investigation continues...

This is what the minister will deal with: Cabinet appointments and dismissals, governance at SOEs, he will later provide input on governance issues and malfeasance in government enterprises, providing documents to submit to the inquiry on what Gordhan has unearthed.

Gordhan says there may be some documents that have been destroyed already. 

Gordhan says his department is beginning to discover the maleficence at SOEs.

Gordhan wishes to give a correction saying he said before that the rand declined sharply, he's asked for the last sentence to be deleted as they will get accurate numbers from Bloomberg...

Gordhan swears to tell the truth and nothing but the truth.

Zondo says there is no problem with Pretorius working and if anyone wants him to be recused, they must submit a written complaint with reasons.

Chair Zondo says Adv Pretorius has asked to be recused because he has a close relationship with Gordhan. 

A video screengrab of Minister Gordhan on the stand: 

Shaun Abrams and Tom Moyane have both been implicated by Pravin Gordhan! Prepare for a lot!

A lot seems to be happening today:

If you are not satisfied with just the words here, you can watch and listen to the testimony live:

[WATCH LIVE] Pravin Gordhan gives evidence at state capture commission

Gordhan is expected to talk about his tenure as Finance Minister from when he was appointed in 2009 and the pressure he endured to approve certain deals to benefit some individuals, including the Gupta family.

Mpofu says they haven't lodged documents yet...

Advocate Dali Mpofu tells chair Raymond Zondo that he present to represent Tom Moyane (fired Sars head). Moyane has been implicated by Gordhan. 

And here we go, started.

The inquiry hasn't started yet. Gordhan is taking his seat and lawyers are getting ready...

Gordhan's supporters? There are many people, including the media to listen to the minister's testimony: 

FULL REPORT: Public Enterprises Minister Pravin Gordhan is set to testify at the state capture commission on Monday morning.

Gordhan set to testify at state capture inquiry

Public Enterprises Minister Pravin Gordhan was meant to appear last week but he asked for a postponement to Monday.

The EFF is planning a protest outside the commission’s venue in Parktown.

They have accused Gordhan of lying under oath over his meetings with the Guptas, and of having been one of those who enabled state capture.

The EFF has serious issues with Gordhan, they don't like the man. And you know what the red berets do when they don't like someone or an organisation? They protest!




 Issa lot isn't it? That's why you need to stay right here, with EWN for rolling updates. 

Gordhan will also tell the commission of the power utility’s willingness and commitment under him to participate in the programme despite Eskom experiencing severe financial challenges.

Gordhan will also tell the commission about his interaction with the Gupta family.

He is also expected to touch on the pressure Treasury received from former President Jacob Zuma to support the nuclear build programme even though the country could not afford it.

The minister is expected to talk about his tenure as Finance Minister from when he was appointed in 2009 and the pressure he endured to approve certain deals to benefit some individuals, including the Gupta family.

Gordhan was meant to appear last week but he asked for a postponement to today.

Taking the stand today is former finance minister and current Minister of Public Enterprises, Pravin Gordhan. 

Good morning and welcome to EWN's live blog about the state capture commission of inquiry.